#134 Public vs. Private Colleges: Myths and Facts with Dr. Matthew Ward Transcript

THIS IS AN AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT… PLEASE FORGIVE THE TYPOS & GRAMMAR! xo-Lisa.

Lisa Marker Robbins 00:55

In today’s episode, we debunk the myths surrounding public versus private colleges and offer valuable advice on evaluating private colleges. I’m excited to be joined by Matthew Ward, Vice President for Enrollment Management and Student Success at California Lutheran University, and our conversation. Matt dispels common myths that often lead families to roll out private colleges such as assumptions about cost and accessibility. We’ll explore how after financial aid, private colleges can be more affordable than they seem at first glance, and we’ll discuss the advantages of private schools, which include the often higher graduation rates at these institutions. Cal Lutheran has a unique program that some other private colleges also offer. You’ll want to learn how this can make a private college within reach for families on a budget. Dr. Ward will also highlight the importance of considering a college’s mission and values along with how to discern mission and values and how visiting campuses can be a crucial step before making a final decision. With 73% of college students attending a public school. There’s a strong likelihood you’ve overlooked affordable private colleges, and there are many benefits. This episode is packed with essential insights to help your family make an informed decision. I’m Lisa Mark Robbins, and I want to welcome you to College and Career Clarity, a flourish coaching production. Let’s dive right in to a great conversation.

Lisa Marker Robbins 02:29

Matt Ward coming from sunny California, at least today. At Cal Lutheran Welcome to the show. How are ya?

Dr. Matthew Ward 02:38

I’m doing great. It’s great to be here. Thanks.

Lisa Marker Robbins 02:41

I’m excited to have this conversation. Because we had one just I think it was back in March, it was episode 111. And we were myth busting, which I think all of us that support families have to do a lot of myth busting when we’re talking about college, and we were myth busting before the assumptions that families make with in state versus out of state schools. And I’ll link to that episode in the show notes. But like this one, I was like, Oh, this is the natural next step. Let’s myth bust and actually just talk through how to be thinking about public schools versus private schools. Because I think that’s another one that there’s a lot of assumptions that families make. And so you know, you’re working in enrollment at Cal Lutheran and you’ve had some experience in the higher ed level here. Why do you think families do just right away tend to rule it out?

Dr. Matthew Ward 03:38

That’s a good question. I think that because a lot of students are enrolled in public, high schools or secondary schools, there’s kind of a natural progression very often, you know, in the state of California, this is definitely the case with the largest public state system in the country with CSU and arguably one of the most prestigious public systems with UC. So I think that this is similar to lots of states where students are enrolled at public schools that have kind of articulation straight into the systems and very often the teachers, the counselors are more familiar. And it’s harder to get to know private schools in a lot of ways because they’re unique. They have different mission attributes. And so it takes a little bit more effort, perhaps to articulate the value or the advantage of of a particular institution. But even in talking to families who are private, secondary institutions, I think, you know, the big brands of publics and kind of the bigger than life and very often that’s associated with athletics and entertainment value that comes from being in a big atmosphere. We like big venues. We like to be a part of something large and I think that public schools kind of have that as a as an overarching theme that that attracts students and families. And there’s a lot of information on public institutions in terms of admission requirements and kind of like, a little bit more standardized understanding of what you need to take, how it’s going to translate. And, and having kind of that pathway set up, I think is, is something that people value. And, and lastly, of course, the financial component, the perception that public schools are simply going to be less costly than going to a private institution. And there’s, there’s a couple of ways of looking at that. There’s certainly the sticker price. But then one thing that I hope we can talk about, that a lot of people may not bring to mind are kind of opportunity costs, as we think about time to degree and what that looks like public versus private. I

Lisa Marker Robbins 05:53

think you hit some really good points there. I mean, it’s like, I was a college major and career coach myself, and that’s my heartbeat. That’s what I try to help kids with. And then figure out, like, figure out what you want to do, and then figure out like, what fits in there, right. But sometimes kids will be like, oh, I want to be a forensic scientist, well, they’re saying was portrayed on CSI or NCIS, or, you know, whatever. And it’s like, this stereotypical, I think a lot of times for the college piece, you’re watching movies, or shows. And it’s the rah rah, the football games, the D, one athletics, the Greek system that can capture their attention. So there’s a stereotype, I find I throw this statistics out this particular statistic out all the time, there are far more and people might be surprised to hear this are far more as far as over 3700 Instant higher ed institutions in the United States that are private or private, nonprofit, and public, there are far more of the privates than there are the public, they far outnumber those. And so families really should listen up to what we’re going to talk about, because they’ve got way more options on the private than they even can begin to imagine. For sure, you know, you brought something up. And we were talking before we started recording about like, we both started on a public path, and then ended up through our own education, and then where you’ve ended up working at private universities, for some reasons. And I think we both found that mission was a big part of that. But the average listener might go like, well, mission, what does that mean? How would you define mission coming from a university? And enrollment?

Dr. Matthew Ward 07:43

Right? So, you know, I work at a faith based institution right now. And I think, you know, we talk about kind of myth busting, you know, in my institution in particular, you know, we, it’s our middle name, it’s it’s Lutheran, it’s a Protestant orientation. But, you know, we’re, we’re about 11%, Lutheran in our student population. But if you were to, and we do surveys a lot to understand how people are perceiving us, and it’s amazing to see how many people answer you have to be Lutheran to go there, or that’s most mostly Lutheran is where, you know, it’s a particular orientation that sets the stage in terms of values. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to have a particular point point of view. And one of the things that I’ve heard, you know, I’m not Lutheran, myself, and I found great grounding here. And I’ve heard, you know, our pastor say that, you know, we’re more Lutheran, by enrolling students who are not Lutheran and come from lots of different kinds of backgrounds, because we like big questions. We like to have ways of looking at the world through a critical lens that introduces people of all faiths and backgrounds, and that’s an important part of, of our experience, spirituality being on the table, you know, and having a values orientation, being a part of the academic experience. We’re not sectarian meaning, you know, that, you know, we’re excluding any thoughts about spirituality or religion, but we’re not dogmatic. And we’re not, you know, doctrinal. You know, so that’s one particular component. There are lots of faith based institutions out there. There are a lot of private institutions that are secular, that have a particular mission that is important to pay attention to when you think about how they orient themselves in their community. And within higher ed,

Lisa Marker Robbins 09:37

go I think, too, I was thinking about like, well, hyoe Wesleyan University here. I, you know, north of Columbus, they have that same thing. It’s like, this is not a school just for the Westlands. It’s really also about tradition, right? It’s just it’s the roots. I mean, if we went back to when these schools were started, yes, right. It would have been probably all I’ll do threads. Right. And that has evolved. Yeah,

Dr. Matthew Ward 10:04

yeah, well, the most prestigious institutions in this country, you know, on the shores of the East Coast, were all founded by religious folks. That’s where we get our robes from, right that we were at commencement, is that religious orientation, and some have evolved to become secular, but private institutions typically will be more focused on on mission and kind of a values orientation to the work that they do that kind of ties in the curriculum, but also kind of the structures of the institution. And I think it’s important for students and families to, you know, explore what an institution is about. And that’s something that, you know, as a father of two children that are starting to look at colleges, and, you know, I was talking before the show where we’re on a trip to New York City, and like, they’re looking at different schools, and they’re placing value on the acceptance rate, right, this institution doesn’t accept a lot of people. So it must be great, you know, regardless of what it’s about, and I think, you know, if there’s any advice here, it’s that, you know, exploring, you know, what an institution is about and looking at as mission is something, you know, to be really important in the process.

Lisa Marker Robbins 11:12

So, I mean, you and I work in this space, and we know how to get at these things. But for our average listener, who’s a parent who’s trying to guide and support their team, do you have any practical advice coming from the college space on how they can get at the mission? Like, where are they going to find that it’s one thing for you and I to know, like, oh, mission, and we tend to know what different universities are about what they’re after? What the flavor is, but how would a parent and their team try to discern that?

Dr. Matthew Ward 11:45

Well, most institutions will have an about section, I oversee marketing and communication. So I actually get to see how people travel. And it’s, it’s, you know, we try to do what we can to highlight certain parts of our website, but very few people actually check into like, what it institutions about. And that section can provide a wealth of knowledge to help one understand the kinds of things that the institution is investing its resources in. And I think another secondary attribute is to look at the research and the scholarship of the faculty members and how they’re orienting themselves. And a big distinction among schools, even within the private sector is the the teaching emphasis versus the research emphasis. And I think that points to another distinction in terms of public versus private, is that the orientation towards teaching in the proximity to the faculty among students is going to be much more much greater at a private institution than a public institution. So I think understanding kind of where the faculty are coming from, at a private institution, they can be found just by exploring the website and seeing like, who am I going to connect to? And I feel like in a lot of ways people connect to the people at a private institution more than they might at a public school. I

Lisa Marker Robbins 13:14

saw I love that you said that about the about page. I would say, this is probably a whole nother episode, like, what is that customer journey? Right? I mean, they are customers or that student journey on the website. And I say all the time, like, Don’t skip over, I think people go to admissions and probably financial aid tabs, maybe academics, and then they’re skipping the like student life and the about section. And you really need to be an A wise and informed consumer. So spend some time on those other areas.

Dr. Matthew Ward 13:47

That just to jump in there. I think it’s interesting. I’ve been in this game a long time. And what I hear very often from families after they visit campus is when you ask the student, you know, why did you select that institution? Well, it just it just felt right. I found my my people, I found my community and I think that can happen on a on a campus tour. But I think there are probably some things that you can do in advance to kind of know the vibe of a place that might help you discern kind of like where you hone in and understanding kind of what activities what people are into some of those things, I think, are a part of that. And certainly the campus visit at the end of the day can can be we’re one seals the deal. But a lot of the attributes of an institution, I think are found within kind of the the, the the community evaluation and and that can be found in the you know, the mission of the institution and the work that they’re dedicated to. It was

Lisa Marker Robbins 14:50

funny, I had Marni Levine she’s an independent counselor she was on in March. And we were talking about how do you make that final decision which by the time this airs said, you know, class of 2024, you’ve graduated and okay, but our listeners are probably those with sophomores and juniors. And so that’s a valuable episode not only for like when you’re making that final decision, but to help be a guidepost along the way and help you navigate that. But one of the things that goes back to visiting, which I think is, you know, critically important, and you can also start your visits online, right? Was, it’s okay to apply somewhere, maybe that you haven’t gone to campus like I’m in Cincinnati, it’s, it’s a big lift to get out there to California timewise money wise, maybe not everybody can do it. But don’t enroll someplace where you haven’t gotten your feet on campus, right? Oh,

Dr. Matthew Ward 15:43

absolutely. Absolutely. And if, if COVID did anything for our industry, and lot’s of luck, it certainly did lots of things. It upped our game in terms of virtual, the virtual aspects of, of exploring a school and I think institutions have gotten a lot better at giving students and families a way to kind of understand the place. But absolutely never, ever choose an institution without stepping foot on that campus. I mean, maybe there’s some folks out there that want an online experience, but my guess is the majority of the people who are engaged in this, podcasts are interested in a more traditional experience. And you have to have a sense of, of the campus. And another piece of advice, particularly for you know, a freshman and sophomore in high school. And when when we go to places on vacation, even if we’ve never really even thought about the school, doing a campus visit and or going to the admission presentation is super helpful. And sometimes you have to explore what you don’t like to hone in on what you actually do like about an institution. And I think when you get to the spring, junior year, and that’s the first time you start going through like college visits, it feels that much more stressful, because there’s so much ground to cover. Yeah,

Lisa Marker Robbins 16:59

you know, it’s so as we’re talking through all of the visit peace and getting on campus, and I brought up cost is going to take me back to cost, right? I think, you know, even my, one of our sons, he’s our he’ll actually be 26 this week as we’re recording. But when he went where he ultimately ended up enrolling, it was eight hours away. And we waited till he was admitted. And we saw the financial aid package. And then we went and then that intuition got in. And so that brings us kind of to this paying for college, like we’ve talked a lot about, like headlines and what’s out there and what captures the attention of teens and probably their parents. And so one of the things that I think is the biggest myth to bust, but it can be true for some institutions as recently. They there are schools that are making the headlines, and there are private institutions who have gone over that $100,000 per year, cost of attendance. And I think that it’s a shame a Wow, unbelievable how much money that is. I remember, it feels like it was like right before COVID That we were saying, Oh, my word. You know, Chicago just got to 85,000 who’s next? Right? And in our industry, everybody would make their guesses of who’s next? Okay, so now we’re at 100,000. But for me, on my side, the biggest myth, the bust is is going to cost six figures a year, or it’s going to cost you know, 6070 I think cost I hear is the primary reason that they immediately dismiss all of the private institutions. And you know, a lot more about that side than I do. But, you know, how do you respond to that when our listeners are like, Oh, private institutions are just they’re too much money.

Dr. Matthew Ward 18:54

So I’m gonna get into some, some technical space here, maybe lead with something that we did years ago, and that is that we offered the public price promise that Cal Lutheran and this was back when I started here, a while ago, more than more than a decade ago, when we looked at our financial aid packaging. Now, there’s something in industry that we call a discount rate, right. And then there’s a there’s an organization until the National Association of collegiate Business Officers and every year they publish a tuition discounting survey among private institutions, because the wealth in this country is not going up as fast as some of these prices, the price tags of these institutions, institutions organize their financial aid programs to discount nearly all of the students who are admitted. Now there are, you know, super high achieving institutions that do have some affluent families that pay full price but very few families pay full price at an institution, so

Lisa Marker Robbins 20:01

well, particularly would you say, at a private or the private and public just private,

Dr. Matthew Ward 20:06

I’d say private, private and public, I think, you know, public institutions, particularly flagship publics, who enroll out of state students do get into this game, to a certain extent to attract particular kinds of students to diversify their their their campuses, or bring students from different parts of the country or world. So there’s a lot of strategy that goes into building a financial aid program. And so when I was looking at our merit scholarships, and comparing the financial aid awards, those students who got into UCLA and UC Santa Barbara, you know, these are two institutions in our backyard, very prestigious. And those if they’re the scholarships that they’re getting, you know, that were based on merit, would put our price about the, you know, in the in the same range as these institutions. And so we put our money where our mouth is, and then rolled that program out. And, you know, one of the things that that was kind of a consequence that was great to come to find out was that because we made the program so easy to understand, first generation college student enrollment in that program went up dramatically, the families that didn’t necessarily have the resources to, to navigate the college experience, and get all the information were very quick to take us up on that offer, but also those that were skeptical about the price of a private institution. So

Lisa Marker Robbins 21:38

can you tell me a little bit about how that public price promise, that’s a mouthful isn’t? How it works. So if, because I’m here in Ohio, I’m in Cincinnati. If my student is coming out there, are you promising that it matches Ohio State? Or is it about the the California system? How does that work?

Dr. Matthew Ward 21:59

Thanks for jumping in. Lisa just jumped to the well,

Lisa Marker Robbins 22:02

you and I get so we’re, well, we’re, we’re so up close to it. Right, we jump to the well, we assume that the listener knows and, and I’ve learned, you know, 120 episodes or so and that. I’m a little too close sometimes. So we need to like dial it back. So how would that work? Like if one of my clients here in Cincinnati? Yeah,

Dr. Matthew Ward 22:23

so So basically. So when we first started the program, we basically said, show us your admit letter to one of these institutions. And we will match the cost of attendance through scholarship. So it just became an automatic scholarship. Once the student demonstrated that they got into those institutions, we eventually evolved the program to include all UC eligible students and set the price and made it a lot easier. So we basically mapped the academic qualifications of the UC eligible students student, and made that scholarship level commensurate with the average cost of UC in California. So this year, the scholarship is a $32,500 scholarship. So our tuition hovers around 50,000. And with that, that that’s with that scholarship, you can also have other forms of aid, like Cal Grant, which is an in state grant, Pell Grant, we have lots of students that pull in outside scholarships, federal work study, and sometimes some loans. And I’ll just dive into this piece, because you mentioned what very often the media covers in terms of the debt burden. Certainly, debt is a concern. And I’d argue that it tends to be concentrated in the for profit sector, more than the not for profit sector. But the average debt of a Cal Lutheran graduate hovers around $30,000. So that’s all for years, where the headline reads, you know, hundreds of 1000s of dollars in debt to graduate from that from that institution and not ours. But But you’ve seen those those headlines. And so I think it’s important for families to understand, you know, the upfront costs and these kinds of tuition discount programs like public price promise, but the other thing that I think is important for families to explore are opportunity costs. And the likelihood of graduating from a private school in four years is much higher than most public institutions. I shouldn’t say all that. But most, and for us, we put together what’s called the for to finish program. So anybody who enrolls as a first year student at Cal Lutheran is guaranteed to graduate in four years or they don’t pay tuition for any education beyond that four year time frame. Wow.

Lisa Marker Robbins 24:50

How do you guys ensure that that happens? Well,

Dr. Matthew Ward 24:53

so we do. We do have there’s a little bit of fine print, but that’s basically you have to choose a major bye bye After your third semester, another thing like, I have to pick a major rather right away, no, at a private institution in particular, you have a little bit more time to explore the curriculum. So students have to pick a major, by the end of by the end of that third semester, they have to meet with their academic advisor every year. So there’s just a couple of little things that we make

Lisa Marker Robbins 25:20

kids get off track, right? I mean, I say to the parents in our community all the time, but Mike, your kid can get off track, if they’re taking too few hours, if they’re not meeting with their advisor, and the advisor is not going to come hunt them down. And nobody’s holding your kids hand and taking them over to the office. So that you guys are saying, like, No, you got to do this to for us to help you support you and getting to the finish line on time. And

Dr. Matthew Ward 25:47

we put together a contract, it’s very straightforward, basically, pick a major, talk to your academic advisor, stay unsatisfactory, satisfactory academic, as keep Satisfactory Academic Progress, which is, you know, a 2.0, or better average, and you will graduate in four years now, I think it’s important, you know, besides the about section, another thing to explore are some of the graduation and retention outcomes at a place. So if you look at like, I’ll use a, I love my sisters and brothers at Cal State. But I’ll just point out that that the the four year graduation rate of a cal state institution hovers in, depending on the institution, but we’ll take it system wide is like in the 20s. So if let’s just even say it’s 30%, if 30% of the students graduate, in four years, and you’re looking at an institution that has more than than double that, you can start looking at the economics of trade offs, right, another year of tuition at a public institution, maybe it’s less expensive, but you’re gonna pay it for another year.

Lisa Marker Robbins 26:57

You know, I want to just say real quick, because I think parents is the thing that you know, and I know, but parents don’t know, quite a while ago, the government started, when they were started, they changed how they were tracking graduation rates. And instead of saying four or five, six year rates, they went 468. And they actually quote, higher, you know, longer time to completion. And so that’s because this has been so messed up at so many schools, right. And there’s

Dr. Matthew Ward 27:28

lots of different kinds of students out there. And I don’t want to in any way, disparage part time students who might be working in taking longer to go to school, yeah, the student who’s focused on getting through college in an efficient way. And it has an idea about getting through college, and for years, you’re much like, you have a much higher likelihood of doing that at a private institution than a public institution. And then the opportunity costs of not going into, you know, a professional school or graduate school right away, are getting into the job market right away. So, you know, you evaluate that over time, and the cost differential changes. So these dynamics are important to look at. And that doesn’t even really cover, you know, how we do the value equation, right? Because a public institution, you’re going to be much less likely to be able to access a faculty member on a regular basis and office hours, or you’re going to be in a much larger classroom. I think that’s pretty well understood. Small class, that big classes, how much do you value that? And then put it against these other costs, dynamics that are also sometimes a myth, right?

Lisa Marker Robbins 28:43

Yeah. I have a question for you. So sometimes I will hear from students who are at a very large public high school like that they’re concerned about size. And so how do you answer that because, like the school down, just around the corner here is the largest is from a rather, you know, upper, upper middle class community. This the largest Ohio public high school, like everybody in one building, right? And so kids see numbers, and they go, Oh, that’s, you know, smaller than my high school or smaller than my graduating class. How does that play into this? Because I always tell them, it feels different when you get on campus. That’s my quick take. But do you have a different way of looking at that? Yeah,

Dr. Matthew Ward 29:34

I mean, there’s going to be some things that are the are pretty clear, right? It a 50,000 student campus versus a 2000 student campus is going to look and feel very differently. But there are also a lot of nuances to take into mind as well because a lot of the schools and I will so we’re about 3800 Students with undergrad and grad come I find I like our size, because it’s still big enough that you get to know new people, you know, on a regular basis. But there’s a lot of proximity. But I think the other thing to keep in mind is the residential experience, because a lot of private institutions operate like a village where there’s activity all throughout the day, because it’s a residential kind of place. So the comings and goings of campus are, are 24/7, right? That people are leaving, and it’s not like, you just got to pay attention to the cars moving in the parking lot. So I can get my space so I can get the class and then I’m out. Right. So there are residential experiences that are very valuable at public institutions. But you’ll find a large population that commutes it makes harder to establish those those deeper relationships or to get really involved in, you know, club communities that that operate into the evening. So I think that attribute, and I’ll just use the kind of the village metaphor as a way of, of having your listeners explore that idea.

Lisa Marker Robbins 31:04

I love that metaphor, because I went to a private small liberal arts faith based undergrad experience coming out of a large public high school. And I wholeheartedly agree with that, like they, we didn’t have a Greek system on my campus. But the dorm and the floor that you lived on, almost became like your, you know, your sorority or fraternity. And that was kind of the hub of the social scene. And people weren’t coming and going all the time.

Dr. Matthew Ward 31:37

Yeah, and I mean, I use our athletics program is a great example of that, you know, about a quarter of our students compete among these 22 teams, but you go to the games, and there’s connections between the teams, right? Like, this team isn’t just this group of athletes that are almost professional, that kind of isolated living a different kind of experience, they’re a part of your your community. And that, that happens when students are doing their recitals for music, are doing a lecture on a on a on a research project. They have peers that are a part of their crew, that could be tied to their residential experience. It could be tied to different kinds of clubs or ways that they’ve come together. There’s a lot of intersections that happen at a private institution that I think create a a fabric of life that is very vibrant. Well,

Lisa Marker Robbins 32:30

Matt, this has been fantastic. We went into it, not necessarily thinking it was gonna be all about myth busting, but I think we busted some myths. And my heart is always behind families just making wise informed decisions and being a wise consumer because this is a big investment to make. But it’s not astronomical, as you pointed out. So that word, thank you for being here to talk about private colleges and let us have a peek at Cal Lutheran. Thanks, Lisa,

Dr. Matthew Ward 33:00

what a pleasure.

Lisa Marker Robbins 33:07

Thank you to Dr. Matthew ward for sharing his expertise and joining me to myth bust. As we wrap up, I encourage you to take a closer look at the true cost of a private college your student might be interested in. If you aren’t sure where to start, head to college navigator.gov and use their search tool to find private colleges. Remember, the sticker price is not always what you’ll actually pay after financial aid. Many private colleges offer substantial to Wishon discounts that can make them more affordable than you might think. If today’s episode was helpful to you who favor please share it with a friend who might need it too. When you share the podcast and rate and review it for me, this helps us resource more families to launch their students. Thank you for listening to College and Career Clarity podcast, where I help your family move from overwhelmed, confused to motivated, clear and confident about your team’s future.