#160 How World Languages Open Doors with Dr. Karyn Koven Transcript

THIS IS AN AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT… PLEASE FORGIVE THE TYPOS & GRAMMAR! xo-Lisa.

Lisa Marker Robbins 00:58

Are your teens world language classes just another box to check, or could they be the key to unlocking remarkable opportunities? If you’re wondering whether pushing through that third or fourth year of language study in high school is worth it, this episode might change your perspective. Today, I’m thrilled to welcome Dr Karen Koven to discuss a topic that often leaves parents and teens conflicted world language options. As an expert in innovative Language Education, Dr Koven brings fresh insights into how language study can become a powerful differentiator in college admissions, rather than just another requirement to fulfill, we’ll explore why many students struggle with traditional language classes despite getting good grades, and more importantly, what you can do about it, you’ll discover flexible alternatives that can help your busy teen continue language study without sacrificing other essential activities, and learn about the important credential called the Global Seal of Biliteracy that could make your teen’s college application stand out. If you’ve ever wondered whether those language classes are truly preparing your teen for college and beyond, or if you’re looking for ways to help your student continue language study without adding more stress to their already packed schedule, this conversation is for you. I’m Lisa Marco Robbins, and I want to welcome you to College and Career Clarity a flourish, coaching production. Let’s dive right in to a great conversation. Dr Karen Koven, welcome to the show. I am so excited to have you here, particularly this time of year. Welcome. Thank

Dr. Karyn Koven 02:43

you. Thanks so much, Lisa. I’m glad to be here. So

Lisa Marker Robbins 02:48

we teed you up about language bird, and it’s really I mean, I hope I don’t butcher us a school that is all about helping kiddos and adults and college students, people of all ages become proficient in languages, and they can earn their credits. And so what piqued my interest in talking to you, because I didn’t know you, and I’m like, I wonder if this Karen Koven would come on the show, and I reached out, because I’m like, one of the things I dealt with this with my own one of my kiddos was a high school sophomore. His schedule was getting so heavy, and he loved taking Spanish, but he was starting to feel like with the engineering options that he had in high school, some of the computer science options dual credit, he didn’t want to miss out on but yet he was between a rock and a hard place with his languages and and it was like, Well, I’m gonna eventually hit he dropped band first. It was like, do I stick with band or do I stick with my language? He dropped band first. He did one more year of Spanish, Spanish, three. And then it was like, Okay, now there’s really no more room to persist in my language. And I wish we would have known about the options that you have back when he was still in high school. He’s practical. He’s almost 27 now, so it was a while ago because he wouldn’t have had to let go of something and and so we’re doing a bunch of different episodes this time of year, January, February, to help families really think about the choices their kids are making when they’re going ahead and and picking those classes. And I think the first thing that happens is a family says to me, Well, how does this fit into getting into college? Like, that’s the first lens, right? How does this affect getting into college, and so tee that up for us. And you know, a lot, just from a language perspective, what those expectations are, and how these decisions we’re making and what classes to take effect in the language area.

Dr. Karyn Koven 04:55

Sure, I have so many thoughts about the story that. You shared

Lisa Marker Robbins 05:01

with my son? Yeah. I

Dr. Karyn Koven 05:03

mean, if I could, I’ll say that my background is in college counseling, and so I created language verb to solve this very problem. I love solving educational problems, and I was working with students trying to get them into the best colleges possible with scholarships, and where they sort of were lacking in a place that they could differentiate themselves from other students, was in the language area, and you said that your son had first given up band and then given up Spanish, and I was thinking, and I when I created language bird, I was thinking, what a shame that kids have to give things up, right? We all have to do that. There’s limited hours in in the day. There’s six periods, right in a traditional school. But what is it about our culture. What is it about what we deem as important that we say we’ll take out, like the fun stuff and the stuff that you do like throughout your whole life? Like he could play that musical instrument forever. You know he could benefit from learning a language throughout his life to communicate with all sorts of other people, college admissions for future work, etc. So it’s just curious to me, how we prioritize things, and I do think it’s an important thing that you’re bringing up. And what I saw is that students really maybe had an interest, but the way that they were learning language, and the importance that we put on it was very minimal and kind of not interesting. And so, so when I think about learning a language, we want this to be very applicable, practical for students to see how interesting and exciting it is and how it can apply directly to their present and their future. And so first off, I think it’s, it’s important to have students know that, you know, put the carrot that’s right in front of them there, learning and persisting in the language that you choose in high school, or perhaps in a different language that your high school maybe doesn’t offer. But really going from for that can differentiate you from a lot of students. If what we’re saying is that a lot of students are advised that they don’t need to take language anymore, it’s a really easy way just to keep doing something that you are doing to have a competitive edge over other applicants. And in consulting with a lot of admissions offices, they have confirmed that indeed, a lot of students drop language after sophomore or junior year. And the fact is that just like math or English, they really want you to persist all the way through college, because at many colleges, the likelihood of you coming in, joining, except being accepted to a major that requires language, is sometimes very high. So all of a sudden you’ve had a gap right your senior year and the summer between when you’ve taken Spanish or French or whatever it is that you’re pursuing, and that long gap can be very detrimental and set you all the way back a couple of years or to the beginning?

Lisa Marker Robbins 08:34

Yeah, I, you know, I’ve always said this, you know, math and foreign language like those, are two things that, if you take a break and try to dive back in when you’re at a fairly, you know, I’m not talking just like, you know, Spanish, first year language, second year language. Like, then you’re going to three or four. Like, I can’t even imagine, you know, I’m 56 but even back then, like, diving back in, because they’re so foundational, and it feels like it’s a, you know, use it or begin to lose it type thing. You know, you you were bringing up what you are hearing on the college side, and you have this background in college counseling, as do I, and it varies by colleges, right? We can look at the common data set and look at if they a particular school requires a number of years or recommends a number of years, and that’s just the first layer of it, you know. So I have a video I’ll link to it on in the show notes, where we show how to find the common data set to see. But like you said, it that persistence going through is going to give in an admission edge, right? And so, yeah, but, and I think it’s, it’s interesting too. And I think a lot of parents think of core courses only as English, math, social studies and science. But. And really the colleges look at core courses as foreign language. Also they’re absolutely they’re included in that. And I don’t think parents always get that, or kids get that. Yeah,

Dr. Karyn Koven 10:10

I think that oftentimes, depending on where you live, depending on the school, depending on your resources, it’s often categorized and something you should do, but not something you have to do, something that’s like an elective, something that gets dropped in favor of, maybe some things that other schools, you know, that the homeschool does very well, and there are only so many hours in the day, so you want to take the most popular class, whether it’s, you know, an art history class or a geology or an AP, you know, something or other, and you think you don’t have enough space. We also have a situation, I know in this country, and it’s faced by all schools, but it’s really hard to find language teachers at the high school level that want to work with high school students each day, that want to commit to that full time that are not either working at universities or doing something else with that very valuable skill. So schools find it really challenging to find language teachers, and then schools need to decide, what language do we want to offer, and do we want to make this investment? Are there enough students that are interested? So oftentimes it becomes a decision that schools make that it’s harder to find language teachers, it’s harder to make this space a lot of students, maybe are familiar with classes that they’re taking at school where it seems to be a lot of rinse and repeat, right? There’s a class of 20 or more students in a Spanish class, most of the time what they’re doing is repetition, listening, doing worksheets, working out of a book. It’s not the like fun, interactive stuff that you do when you’re traveling or that when you’re meeting people are communicating when you’re using your brain to try to figure out how to say something that you really want to say. Right? So all the things that learning a language can lead to are really not demonstrated in a classroom. And I think sometimes the way in which we teach language here in the US is oftentimes a turn off and students think it’s boring rather than really get engaged and see it as a means for them to expand their world. And that expansiveness is something that colleges are looking for. Right, look at our college campuses today. What do students need to be able to do? They need to be able to arrive on campus, right, meet their new roommate that’s from a place they’ve never heard of before, and they need to be open. So colleges are thinking, what kind of students do I want to fill my class with? What kind of students do I want in our clubs? What kind of students do we want in our classrooms with different points of view? And if you’re demonstrating that you have a worldly point of view, that you understand that there are places, people, thoughts, expressions, outside of your community, outside of your state, right outside of your country. Many colleges now are very international, so they think this student can hop in and and really get along with a variety of students.

Lisa Marker Robbins 13:25

Yeah, a lot of colleges, I hear them say, We want globally minded citizens. And that’s a term I I hear a lot. It’s, you know, they have a lot of international students on their campus because, quite frankly, they pay a lot of the budgets and the bills for the colleges, and so there you’re going to be with people that are different than you. This shows that you’re understanding something that’s different than you. But also I hear a lot as a buzzword, like globally minded or global citizens, and I think this is part of it. I want to hear a little bit more about you said, because here’s what it made me think of. You were talking about how we teach language, and I mean, I did two years at German all the way back in the early 80s. So I don’t really have a lot to offer to this part. Sure, it’s very different now, but what it made me think of is, as a college major and career coach doing career development and advising with students, we talk a lot about experiential learning, experiences curated getting up close and personal with a career so we can make a decision not just read about it or watch a video about it, but go do job shadows and talk to people about their jobs. And so as you were talking harping, really rightfully so on how we teach language, I was thinking, oh, you know what you’re endeavoring to do is my version of experiential. Learning to make informed decisions about your future, if, if the world, if it were up to Karen, how would we teach language?

Dr. Karyn Koven 15:10

That’s such a great question that I asked myself, and that’s how I created language. Bird was because I was thinking, what do these students need, that they’re missing, that doesn’t have presence or an opportunity in typical schools. And I really, I really want to go back to the fact you shouldn’t feel bad what you did in the 80s for two years in German. It honestly hasn’t changed very much. Okay,

Lisa Marker Robbins 15:40

well, I don’t think Germans offered in many schools at this point in

Dr. Karyn Koven 15:45

some areas. It is, it is, but, but I guess what I’m saying is that things haven’t changed that much in the traditional education space, and so it’s up to I feel like, as an educational entrepreneur, as somebody who wants to create things that are for today, ideal way to teach a language is to make it applicable, to make it project based, to make it experiential, to make it relationship based. We really strive to make sure that students have a personal connection with their instructor. That’s where it comes from, right? Most people’s love of x, whatever it is, science, writing, math, it comes from probably a relationship back to an instructor, a teacher who made a difference, made an impression. Excited you. So in my mind, it’s about connecting individuals to create a community of learners that learns to communicate together and accept differences and similarities. And so the ideal way to learn a language is not just to listen and repeat or memorize vocabulary lists. I’ve had countless parents come to me and say, my first daughter went through and took AP French, and when she graduated, she wanted to go to France. She got a five on the AP. She could write about Voltaire. She loved her French teacher, and then we arrived in Paris and she couldn’t speak. So we learn, typically, in traditional classes, one part of the brain, that is the intake part, but not the other part of the brain, which is the output, which is sort of the fun, exciting, risk taking part where you’re like, trying to communicate something and you might sound funny, you know, that sort of part that people are a little bit, little bit intimidated by. So ideally, to me, it’s relationship based. It’s based on the fact that you get to practice speaking a lot in an environment that you feel safe taking risks in it’s based on having a curriculum that makes sense to you, like if you want to learn baseball Spanish, or if you want to compose a song in French, or write a recipe and cook and explain to somebody how to cook in French, well, that’s what you should be studying. That vocabulary. It’s the same as when adults would come to us and say, Hey, I work in a school, or I work in a business that’s doing this or that. And I need to be able to speak in this way. I don’t need to know all the fruits and vegetables. I want to be able to tell people what I’m thinking or what I’m saying, or to be able to discuss movies with them and such. So tailoring, personalizing, making it project based, and really serving the student in such a way that you don’t leave them behind. That’s the biggest thing. If you have learning loss or gaps in your learning just like in math, if you don’t know how to add or multiply, it’s going to be really hard for you to do calculus. So ideally, we’d meet each student where they are, start where they are, fill in any learning gaps, and then go from there, so that they don’t get lost.

Lisa Marker Robbins 19:23

You know, as you were talking about that, like the little bit of the riskiness of speaking right, instead of reading signs and France when you’re visiting France or whatever, what I was thinking about is like, when I’m teaching college major, I’m doing college major and career advising. In my launch Career Clarity course, we first teach to go out and research and absorb, just read about, watch the videos, gather information, and then. So it feels very risky to say, Hey, can I sit down to you adult and talk to you about your job? Or could I come to your office in job shadow? Or it’s that same, like you said, input, output, that output side is really like curating experiences. Yeah, and what you hit on there was, it actually is a little exciting when it’s a little risky, yes, and when I’m doing my with my business coaching clients, and we set quarterly goals, two to three quarterly goals, which I also have a student goal setting framework on my website. If anybody wants it, it’s a little bit different, but it’s the same. You don’t want too many goals you don’t want too few. But there’s a continuum on goal setting, and what I have found in working and coaching people is, if it’s too safe, you become bored and you quit. But if it’s too big to actually delusional, you’ll be overwhelmed in your quit. And the sweet spot to keep the motivation going tends to have a little bit of risk, a little bit of stretch, which brings a little bit of excitement. And those are the goals that people tend to stick with, instead of the too easy or the too hard, boring or overwhelming. And it, it just, I don’t know what you were saying, it kind of, you know, it feels like it fits with that on the output side, because you said, Gosh, it’s a little scary to just walk up to somebody and start to talk, or on the output side,

Dr. Karyn Koven 21:34

and it’s also something you have to practice, right? Risk taking is something that you have to practice. It’s a it’s another skill we have to hone. You know, is the ability to take some risks. But I think when you’re in a safer environment or in a one to one environment, so we teach language one to one, right? Okay, have to worry about other people listening to your funny accident, accident accent, feeling like, oh my god, I made a mistake, or there’s a problem, you know, or feeling shy in a class. So we really break down the barriers just to have one trusted person who can also give you feedback right away. So when you were talking about, like doing a little bit of research first, like getting your feet wet, that, to me, is a lot like what people do, or what some families come to us and say, My student has been learning Japanese in Duolingo or in some app. And I told them, if they do the app every day, then I will see the commitment, and then they can enroll in an actual class that they’re really interested in it. But adults tell me all the time, as well as students, you can only work an app for so long, right? True till you reach your max, even if it’s gamified and sort of fun. The thing is, you know, you reach a point where you’re like, I don’t know if I could string this all together and actually have a conversation, right? And you have to practice it. So that’s where the risk comes in. It’s like, I think I know enough that I want to go out there and, like, give it a try, but I have to feel safe enough, but it’s kind of exciting. Yeah.

Lisa Marker Robbins 23:29

Okay, so if our listeners are, you know, sitting here and they’re thinking about, I’ve got to make curriculum choices about next year already, and they’re trying to, you know, make these tough choices. Obviously, you’re advising persist in your language and not have gaps in it. Colleges want that. It’s good for you. And I mean, we should just say language birds an option. If they do go, gosh, I have these tough choices, like when my son was in that position, he was applying to and he was going to be applying to engineering schools, he had the opportunity to take a engineering to dual enrollment credit engineering courses on computers, and he’s a computer engineer. Now, on computers, he had a double blocked period where he was going to leave with a very valuable micro credential. And we actually didn’t talk that much about micro credentials 10 years ago when he was in high school, but now, I mean, they are emerging in the up and coming thing. And so he was making those tough choices, but language bird would allow him to still have earned his high school credit right. And I don’t even mean for this to be like a commercial for language bird, but it’s just such. It’s a parents are in a quandary, but this is a solution to solve that

Dr. Karyn Koven 24:56

Yes is the short answer, the longer answer. Answer is we really strive to make language accessible for students to be able to continue also with all the other things that they really love. So one profile of a student that we have is like the one that you described a student who over program sounds negative, but we’re all busy, right? And the student who has a lot of different interests but maybe doesn’t want to give it up, but is being forced to make a choice, we give them an opportunity to not have to make the choice to take it out of their schedule, because they can continue their language course for credit with with language bird either after school, on the weekends or over a summer. I designed our accredited courses for credit so that a student who is up to speed on their skills and is an independent learner and will take responsibility show up to the classes that are scheduled because they’re all live with an instructor, so they need to make the commitment. But I created it so that a student could take it over a summer, so that you could take all of Spanish four, let’s say, over a summer before you enter your school year. So it’s really self paced, and that, to me, was important, because I know how busy students are today and how important it is that they might have an internship or a job or be studying for an AP test. And so how can we let them continue this and not take it away and also give them further choices, right? Maybe you’re not that hot about Spanish, but maybe you’re really interested in Portuguese or Japanese or American Sign Language is actually our second most popular language.

Lisa Marker Robbins 26:54

Oh, it is. Was is Spanish? Your first Spanish,

Dr. Karyn Koven 26:58

and then ASL and then French, I believe, because those are still most traditionally offered at schools. But many schools don’t offer ASL. So students flock to us for ASL, just for ASL. Yeah, what

Lisa Marker Robbins 27:13

around here, where I live in Cincinnati, it seems like larger high schools might have ASL, but is ASL considered an official, officially a foreign language at the for college admission, will they count it there? Okay,

Dr. Karyn Koven 27:28

yes, it is. I mean, in saying that with a college counseling background, I’ll say that with the caveat that if you’re looking at a particular program and you’re taking ASL to inquire, to make sure, but to my knowledge, most programs across the country except ASL, and it’s become a very popular option for students who are neuro divergent, students who want to possibly pursue a career in a field where they may utilize us up ASL, excuse Me, and in the US, we also have a lot of opportunities for students to learn about even different cultures within ASL, which I find fascinating, that there are differences between regions, just like we have accents, there are different ways to express things in ASL. So it’s really a deep, rich cultural language to learn that people don’t realize, but it’s one that students are certainly interested in, and is gaining a lot in popularity. I

Lisa Marker Robbins 28:31

love that. So as you’re taught, we talked a lot about, like on the college side, what they’re looking for, what do you see in your conversations with parents, and maybe even, I know you talked to a lot of schools, at what point do kids tend to give up their language? And I mean, I brought to you the situation like we were out of room in his schedule. But what are some of the other common reasons why students might drop a language?

Dr. Karyn Koven 29:04

Well, unfortunately, sometimes it’s because a counselor might not advocate for them continuing to take a language. Yeah, perhaps a counselor, even with good intentions, is like you’re not doing that well in Spanish, maybe you should just stop taking it. But maybe they’re just not in the right program for it. Maybe they’re learning it the right way, so they’re discouraging or giving the messaging sometimes that’s not quite accurate. I know, you know, everybody has experienced this, like you’re not good at blank, right? Somebody told you that where, and then you shut down forever, and it’s like, oh, my counselor in the 10th grade told me I wasn’t very good at Spanish because I got a B, you know, I should, you know, that shouldn’t be the path that we go down. So what we should focus on, really, is that, if the student wants. To persist that there are other ways for them to do that, or to try to get them more interested, to pull them back in. It’s usually after they finish the high schools requirements, which for most college prep high schools, is just two years, that all of a sudden the counselor says you don’t have to take that and colleges, and I would argue that you probably should differentiate yourself and also to prepare more for your future.

Lisa Marker Robbins 30:28

Okay, before we wrap it up here, because we’ve got students who you had mentioned, you know, students who take AP, you know, languages can do you guys offer AP or an equivalent of that like because that’s something that colleges are also looking, not only for that persistence, but simply for rigor. You know, rigor counts for a lot when it comes to getting in. So it’s like, how many honors classes have you had? How many AP classes have you had? And so I wonder how that plays into the language side of this. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Karyn Koven 31:12

Or I can speak for for language bird as an organization, what we point to is our accreditation and that you want to look for a program that’s accredited and would be accepted by your high school and by colleges. So accreditation is important. If you’re a student athlete, you want the course to be NCAA approved, which we are. If you also want to demonstrate your proficiency at a high level, what we recommend is that you take the global Seal of Biliteracy and our curriculum matches the global Seal of Biliteracy exam a lot better than an AP exam. Our educational philosophy, as I explained, is really not to drill testing and have time tests. And a lot of students and parents love that about what we do. Their Students are evaluated each time that they meet with their instructor, and they’re given feedback on the spot. So we don’t test, we don’t give time tests, and that for students is sometimes a relief. They do a project at the end which enables them to really demonstrate everything that they’ve learned. So the global Seal of Biliteracy is available for anybody who’s 13 or over, and we do help them prep for that test, and they can take it and take the scores with them to college to be placed in a higher level. The awesome thing Lisa about the global seal also is that you can put it on a resume or on LinkedIn a CV in the future, because it’s not just a high school thing. You could take it tomorrow in German if you wanted to, and then, you know, put it on your LinkedIn that you’re proficient to work in German. So we issue that test, in fact, to students who don’t even take a class with us. You could just come and say, I want to take the global seal. You could take it multiple times.

Lisa Marker Robbins 33:12

Is that offered in person or online? It’s

Dr. Karyn Koven 33:15

online. It’s proctored online. So you can take it at home. You would contact us, and you would tell us, I want to take the global seal in German, and we’d set it up for you. You’d have a testing window where you could go in there and take it on your own from home. It’s a few hours submitted, and then you get the scores back within a couple

Lisa Marker Robbins 33:35

weeks. I mean, this is those people that follow me a lot, or listen to the podcast, or they’re in my career coaching course, they know that I do preach these credentials, these micro credentials and and really, that’s what that is that. And I I should just tell everybody I had no idea about the global seal exam until Karen told me about it. So this was new to me. And I, what I like about it is, yes, it’s going to be recognized probably like equally like proficiency, like the AP exams are showing a certain level of proficiency that is recognized more widely, because now it really is. If you later go after a career or a job that would be bilingual, then they’ve got the assurance that you are credentialed,

Dr. Karyn Koven 34:25

yes, and it’s also offered in languages that students may not be taking at their school. So for instance, if you’re taking Spanish at school, but you have a home language, and you speak a home language and you want to demonstrate your ability in that language, you can do that with the global seal without taking any coursework. So that would be great if you submitted to a college your scores to show not only do I speak Hebrew or Japanese at home, but I took the global seal, which proves. I am functional or working fluent in the language without

Lisa Marker Robbins 35:03

having to take the class. That’s yeah, yeah. That’s fantastic.

Dr. Karyn Koven 35:08

Oh, a lot of people love to use it. And we, we work with schools to implement it, to show the diversity, right, the diversity of their their population.

Lisa Marker Robbins 35:18

That’s amazing. Well, I love this conversation. The timing is perfect. When we have people doing scheduling, it gives us lots to think about. I love just putting that lens on global thinking. Of course, I love the career piece side of this because I think it’s so important and becoming more important as well. And language bird is a fantastic option for those who are not going to be taking languages at their high school. So where do we find out more? If somebody’s like, Okay, this sounds like, you know, if my kid were learning the language, where you got me was, if my kid could learn a language differently, they might actually want to persist instead of just going like, oh, it’s hard. I’m in this group class, it’s boring, whatever. Where do we go to learn more?

Dr. Karyn Koven 36:04

Yeah, absolutely. You can reach out to language Bird by going to our website. Language bird.com bird like the bird that flies in the sky. Bird like traveling or exploring new places. So language bird.com you can email us at support at language bird.com or you can give us a call at 844, 700 bird. Oh, I love that. Yeah, 844, 700 bird, and we have admissions advisors who will really ask you questions or listen to you know what your problem is or what you’re looking for to see if we could be the right solution.

Lisa Marker Robbins 36:51

Okay, fantastic. Thank you, Karen, for making time.

Dr. Karyn Koven 36:56

Oh, thank you, Lisa. I really appreciate it. You.

Lisa Marker Robbins 37:05

What a great conversation about the real value of language learning beyond just meeting college requirements. I encourage you to have a family discussion about World Languages, not just about checking boxes for college applications, but about the doors that could open for both your teens, college and career future. Talk about which approach might work best for your family, whether that’s continuing with traditional classes, exploring flexible options, or pursuing the global Seal of Biliteracy. Remember, you’re not just helping your teen meet requirements. You are potentially giving them skills that could set them apart in college admissions and create future career opportunities throughout their life. If you’re feeling overwhelmed about how language study fits into your teens overall college prep and career development plans, I’d love to help visit flourish coaching co.com forward slash video to access my free on demand guide about helping your team choose the right major college and career without missing crucial deadlines or making choices you both regret. If today’s episode was helpful to you, please share this with a friend who needs us to sharing, following the podcast, rating and reviewing helps us resource more students to launch into successful futures. Thank you for listening to College and Career Clarity, where I help your family move from overwhelmed and confused to motivated, clear and confident about your teen’s future. You.