#222 How Apprenticeships Are Changing Fast and Why It Matters with John Loyack and Andrew Gardner Transcript

THIS IS AN AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT… PLEASE FORGIVE THE TYPOS & GRAMMAR! xo-Lisa.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 0:45
are you still thinking apprenticeships only mean electricians and plumbers and no college degree that outdated belief can cause your child to miss some of the fastest growing highest demand and yes, often highest paying career paths that are available now I see many families stuck in this either or mindset, college or not, degree or not, and that thinking, well, it’s costing young people real opportunities, because what’s actually happening in the workforce right now is a blending of education and employment in ways that we’ve never seen before. In this conversation today, I’m joined by John loyak and Andrew Gardner from the North Carolina Community College System, where they’re helping lead some of the most innovative workforce development and apprenticeship programs in the country. We talk about how apprenticeships have evolved far beyond the trades are now expanding into areas like healthcare, cybersecurity, advanced manufacturing and even AI, you’ll hear how these programs allow young people to earn while they learn, gain real world experience from day one, and often avoid the burden of student debt altogether. Some of these opportunities, though, they’re highly competitive, so we dig into what employers are actually looking for when selecting candidates for these opportunities. And this might surprise you, it’s not just GPA or technical skills that they already have. If you’ve been feeling unsure about the right path after graduation or worried about making a costly mistake, this episode is going to help you see a full range of options in a much clearer way. I’m Lisa Marco Robbins, and I want to welcome you to College and Career Clarity a flourish coaching production. Let’s dive right in to a great conversation.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 2:35
John and Andrew, welcome to the show. Welcome North Carolina. Thank you, Lisa. It’s a pleasure to be here. So before we dive in, you guys are coming from the North Carolina Community College System, lead with that, and we have something for everybody in this episode, regardless of what you have been thinking about, as far as post K 12 educational pathways, employment, or all of the things. It’s going to be a really rich conversation. But before we dive into that, John, why don’t you start out by letting us know what is your role within this North Carolina Community College System, and what are you focused on these days? That’s going to help tee up our conversation?

John Loyack 3:18
I’m happy to do that. Thank you. Lisa. So my name is John loyak. I’m the Vice President of Economic Development here at the North Carolina Community College System. Under my purview as a part of the Economic Development Division, we have a number of different employer focused programs, and so we have the NC edge customized training program that for any business that’s expanding in the state, or any new business coming into the state is kind of our our marquee workforce development incentive that we use to to help businesses as they they come here and grow here in North Carolina. We are the US Department of Labor partner here in the state of North Carolina, and so we handle apprenticeship through a program we call apprenticeship NC, very proud that every one of our 58 colleges has a small business center, and so I also manage the Small Business Center Network. And finally, because of a vastly growing life science industry, about 20 years ago, we launched a program called the bio network, which just allows us to provide even more advanced workforce training or the life science industry, but it’s also expanded into food manufacturing, beverage natural products as well. So an exciting portfolio of products for us here in North Carolina. Well, I

Lisa Marker-Robbins 4:30
think that’s going to be a really interesting part of the conversation we’re going to get into in a second, which is the traditional way that when I’m talking to parents and students that they’re thinking about apprenticeships, really is if I’m going to go into a trade, like electrician, plumbing, things like that, and there’s a lot more to it these days. So I stick with us if you’ve been thinking about this very traditionally and. Welcome to the show. Andrew Gardner, go ahead and tell us about yourself.

Andrew Gardner 5:04
Awesome. So I have the pleasure of serving as the associate vice president of workforce strategies. My primary role is to help promote and accelerate short term training. As you all are aware, we are in the skills era, so I’m here to help usher that along and work with our 58 Community Colleges and Employers employer networks to help co create these short term training programs that lead to credentials and really meet the workforce need, and especially as we see more and more lifelong learners needing to upskill and reskill every few years, we’re here to serve them, and that’s really my primary role in this and being a connection point

Lisa Marker-Robbins 5:42
I love that is, you just said one of my favorite phrases, lifelong learning. You know, I often. I just did a four series of four podcast episode, series about myths that we tell kids that kind of undermines them. And one of them was that, well, the job that you are going to do hasn’t even been invented yet, and then what it embeds in their brain is like, Well, why try why figure it out? But the reality is, it’s always been true. It’s it’s changing, and we have to have an attitude of lifelong learning and expect that career development is going to be lifelong, or we’re not going to have a job at all. We’re not going to be able to keep up, right?

Andrew Gardner 6:27
We got to always remain relevant, and we’re here to do that absolutely.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 6:31
Okay, so let’s, let’s start with this idea of the traditional apprenticeship pathways that we’ve thought of, and how apprenticeships are changing, and I think a lot of it is the business sectors, right?

John Loyack 6:47
Yeah, it’s something, I think there’s, there’s a societal aspect to it. I think there’s, you know, here in North Carolina, well, in here, in the US in general, we’ve been, we had a National Apprenticeship act that was established during FDR final administration. And so it’s been here since the 1930s and yet, to your point, it has been viewed as something that is typically used in the trades. We know that there’s a lot of Trade Unions throughout the country that rely on this just north of us here in North Carolina, the Virginia shipbuilding yards. It is something that is absolutely relied on. And the journey worker certificate, the journey worker badge that someone finishes with that is viewed as the gold standard for a workforce development program, even over a four year degree in many situations. And so it has its roots in that traditional thing. But what’s been exciting is, I would say, over the last five years, kind of, post pandemic, people really began looking at this, and I think it’s been driven by a lot of things. It’s been driven by student debt debate in the state. It’s been driven by the desire to have a job from day one, rather than, you know, essentially, taking taking the risk that you might find a job after you finish an educational program. But it’s one of the things that’s been wonderful about it, is it has expanded. Part of this is out of necessity. What I would say is it states all over the US. We’re dealing with teacher shortages, we’re dealing with nursing shortages, and so that’s a new area for us. And so I would say some of our most the fastest growing apprenticeship programs in the state of North Carolina are in nursing, and we’re getting a lot there’s been a lot of debate within our General Assembly about teaching apprenticeships. And so there’s more to come on that. But I think businesses are also looking at this and trying to understand that. You know, some of these, some of the challenges that advanced manufacturers share, like cyber security, the best way to handle this is not necessarily by bringing in outside vendors, which can be very expensive, but develop the talent on your own. We need to build this talent based on the way that we do things here. And so cyber security apprenticeships are something that’s that that are growing very quickly as well. Outside of that, I would say two others that that I think are very exciting, would be aI apprenticeships. And so we’re seeing it, and at the definition of that at this point is still coming into focus.

Speaker 1 9:20
But the other debate, right? It is

John Loyack 9:23
absolutely up for debate. And here in North Carolina, we have a lot of golf courses that’s a great place to come and spend a little time on a golf course. And so down in Moore County, which is where Pinehurst is, we have actually a greens keeping apprenticeship down there. So some of our schools, based on their communities and what they need, can develop their own programs.

Andrew Gardner 9:46
Wow, I do into a comment John just I think he really emphasized, we are the community’s Community College, and we really co create these programs based off that local and regional need and that. How you tap into that portfolio services. So he mentioned the Small Business Center, so we can set up apprenticeship programs for the small mom and pop shops all the way up to the 500 plus employers. So I really like that nimbleness that we do to serve the local community.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 10:17
So I have a question, what? So clearly, you’re embedded in North Carolina and in the economy and a lot of different sectors of business. So if somebody is listening to this and they’re like, well, we live in I live in Ohio, or, you know, they live, I don’t know out on the West Coast, are the opportunities that you’re having solely for North Carolina students. Do you see people coming in from out of state? You have a staggering number of community colleges over 50. That’s amazing. Do any of them have on campus, housing, dorms, things like that? I’m curious, because a lot of our listeners, they’ve got kids sometimes who are what I call college curious. And I always say, instead of pushing those kids into college, some of my kids went to college. Some of them did not. One of them did trade school. You know, one of them did employer training. Instead of pushing the kids who just tend to be like college curious or parents are questioning, what can they really afford? John, great point, like a lot of this is has grown out of the great expense with a four year degree. Are is this open to people out outside of your state? What does that look like?

John Loyack 11:32
So in what I would say, in some situations, yes. You know, there are certainly very large organizations, typically some of the very large trade associations who do have, they have nationwide apprenticeship programs, yeah, and you know, they could be, they could be running different apprenticeship programs in Ohio or North Carolina. We, we share a border with a number of different states, and certainly we see a lot of people coming in from out of state that take advantage of some of these programs. I would say at the same time, this is something that no matter where you go in the US, the US Department of Labor is going to have either have a partner or be directly involved in that state in terms of helping them develop apprenticeships. The two types of apprenticeship program that any state can have would be the SAA approach, which is the state apprenticeship agency, or you could be an Office of Apprenticeship, which is where the US DOL really plays the lead. Here in North Carolina, for the last 40 years or so, we have been an SAA state, so we’re deeply invested in this, and look at this as something we want to work closely with our partners on a federal level, but we’re going to drive this here. So not every state takes

Lisa Marker-Robbins 12:52
that approach. Yeah, in Ohio, here we have Ohio Means Jobs and and that’s our arm of that. So traditionally, when somebody thinks apprenticeship, you know, we talked about, okay, it’s a lot of the skilled trades. The word college does not come up with those. And so here you two are from the North Carolina Community College group, the Association of your colleges. So what role does college play in this? You know, Andrew, you just said that you’re really about, like, short term training to go into these jobs, but you’re both associated with the word college. So how does that look? That can be really confusing. I think that a lot of people

Andrew Gardner 13:38
so I’ll let John talk a lot about the related instruction and how our portfolio is broken up with how we deliver the training, but our community college is part of the related instruction is delivered through the community college, whether it’s a two year associate’s degree or we are co created the short term, modularized courses that meet their training needs. So again, we’re still co creating with them, and we still see a lot of employers that may do some in house training, but we’re really trying to work together to help them build the training that they need. One strategic move that we made several years ago was that apprenticeship NC moved from the Department of Labor at the state level, under the North Carolina Community College System umbrella, because we knew by that alignment, we can be very intentional about incorporating Community College delivery into the apprenticeship model.

John Loyack 14:32
And I would add that I think this is a trend for the future. I think that even in situations where a business may not be getting the related instruction from a college where I see us going the future is a place where we are sitting down with those employers and building out a joint curriculum with them. I mean, we’ve got to be more engaged. And I would say that that that request is really bi directional. I think they want to be more involved, and so do we. And the good news is we know that whether you’re coming. In here. You know, you could start a you could have someone who’s starting a program in in Charlotte, but who later wants to move to Wilmington, we need to be able to make sure that they’re going to be able to get that same related instruction regardless of where they go.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 15:13
It’s interesting, and I think you’re right. Like this is very evolving in the I don’t know if you guys get the Inside Higher Ed newsletter each morning. You know, they just had this week about apprenticeships at four year schools. Few weeks ago, there was an article about community colleges taking over four year degrees. There’s a debate in some states about who gets to own the four year degree, and then the growing trend of three year bachelor’s degrees, right? So this is quickly evolving, and there’s not, you know, one framework that we can put it all into, but I think the beauty of it is it gives options. I’ve always found it curious, and I love that you guys are designing these educational pathways with employers, because how can a four year bachelor’s degree for every major be the exact same number of credit hours? Is that what’s really needed? And so you guys are designing it with what’s needed in mind, it sounds like. So go ahead, John, you were gonna say something, John, well, I would just

John Loyack 16:25
say that, yes, we’re doing that, whether that be our curriculum programs, but we even going back to, I mentioned our bio network, we’ve got a program called Bio work, which is really an introductory program, so something to introduce people into, give them the basic skills that they’re going to need to work in that industry, and some of those things we know may only require, in the case of bio, work 130 hours. And so we’re looking at what we can do to continue to provide to continue to be relevant, but also to provide value in a lot of different ways. We know that everyone’s path into the workforce or into academics is going to be a different one, and we want to be able to be there to meet them.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 17:07
What would be the area that is, you guys are working with employers that you see the the greatest need in right now, that might, might even surprise people. I mean, some of them, I think we expect. But when we’re talking about apprenticeships and education and college and how it all works together, like where are the biggest needs?

Andrew Gardner 17:29
So I’ll just take a very baseline statement here, and it’s surprise. It’s surprising and not at the same time. Is over and over again you hear from employers, man, we really need more critical thinking skills, employability skills. Just need the baseline stuff to get them in to be successful in the workplace, and then we can train the more detailed technical skills. So again, it goes over and over again. How can we better prepare the future to have these durable skills to be successful employees and have effective communication, time management, just those things that you just assume that individuals will have, but we just have to be extra intentional about embedding those skills in our programs.

John Loyack 18:12
And I’ll add on that and say the answer is absolutely right. And with with a lot of our employer focused programs, the customized training program as an example, we see some some amazingly robust projects coming our way with which include listings of course, work that any industrial partner is looking for. They’ve got very, very highly technical skills that they’re looking for. In many cases, they’re bringing in engineers with a four year degree, and they want to provide them with advanced skills. But I’d never miss a chance to look at these projects and see that leadership skills is something everyone is looking for. It’s almost like a requirement in some of these projects. So while yes, we need to look at AI and automation and what we’re doing in those spaces. But at the same time, these people have to be able to communicate with one another. You know, we need to be able to to resolve conflict in the workplace. We need to be able to give them basic leadership skills as well. And so we’re proud to be able to provide both of them. And those are really a combination of things that we’ve been doing for a very, long time, but they continue to show value.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 19:23
Just some of these apprenticeships or educational pathways, maybe employer training. Andrew, I think you probably have a lot to do with that. Are they? Are they becoming competitive enough that you are turning people away? Or is there so much opportunity across the board that that it’s, it’s not competitive or hard to land these opportunities.

Andrew Gardner 19:46
So I’ll say it’s getting more and more competitive down the line, as far as you know, who can get into these programs. But our colleges are doing a good job at, you know, not giving somebody a decline notice and leaving them they’re. Looking at additional opportunities for them to continue. Maybe the apprenticeship program is not right for them at this moment, but again, how can we continue to support you? Because you’re going to be a valuable employee. So it is getting very competitive in the market, but we still have room to grow throughout the state. Just those high demand apprenticeship programs, there’s wait lists and demands, and employers have to make some tough decisions on who they take.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 20:24
So as I think about that, because I, you know, I work with, traditionally, I’ve worked with high school students, but our career development program is working with 15 to 25 year olds. And so often I’m looking through things through the lens, like with the 20 somethings who are maybe floundering or falling behind that we start working with, or I’m hearing from them, or their parent, often their parents first, because they’re acting as the emotional, financial backstop for these kids. I think about like, okay, how can we correct like, I really firmly believe everything’s figure outable. It’s never too late. Some options might be off the table, but like, how can we correct but when we look at what’s going on with 20 somethings, I go, Okay, this helps guide us on what we should be very proactive with and preventative with, with the teens before they ever get past the graduation line in high school, right? So I was asking that competitiveness with the apprenticeships question through the lens of, okay, the kids for the really competitive ones, the ones that actually, you know, 1819, 20 year old, 21 year old, lands, the competitive ones. What are those outstanding skills that they already have. Like, is it a GPA? Is it some of these communication or soft skills, or is it a technical, technical skill that could set a teenager apart to get accepted into the more competitive pathways? Really, like, what advice will we give to a high schooler on how to level up so you can land the competitive ones?

John Loyack 22:00
You know, I would say there’s a lot of basics that that the the employers are looking at from the moment you pull into the parking lot. They’re checking to see if you arrive on time. They’re checking to see if you make eye contact and how firm your grip is when you shake hands with you the potential new members of the team. So you’re going to be, I think, any business that’s bringing in potential new apprentice, there’s a lot of folks that are looking for that position, because, number one, it’s a paid position from day one. And folks are looking at that, and they’re really very, very, they’re going through a very, their own deep analysis of how will this treat this person fit in with the team? Yeah. And so there are very it’s one of those things that you have to be prepared from the get go, and that’s before anyone’s even taken a look at your GPA or or what your educational background looks like, you know. And so it’s something that I know businesses take very, very seriously as they look into this, maybe in a way that they they they don’t look as deeply in some of the other areas that they hire for. But this is one that I know is is very serious. And what’s interesting is it’s because it’s paid from day one, and there is a salary involved from day one. It’s something that folks who are maybe looking for a career change, or folks who are maybe out of their 20s. And, you know, the, I think the I’ve seen usdl figures that say the the average age of of an apprentice could be anywhere from 30, I think 35 to 41 or so. Oh, wow, so. But the option it, it is something that is an option for an older person who even might have a family, because it’s paid from day one, and that’s what makes it different.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 23:46
Yeah, I actually, I’m working with a 24 year old right now in our elite one on one career development program. He has his college degree, he has a master’s degree, but really was just thinking about the degree and not necessarily what he wanted to do with it. And so he was surprised when I said, like, let’s look at internships and apprenticeships that might fit, think outside the box. So I think people are often surprised by that. So okay, I love this idea. I love that you differentiated this what they’re looking for if you’re going to land the competitive ones, because it’s really like, you don’t have to kids. A lot of times will say to me, the younger ones, well, I don’t know how to do that. I’m like, that’s why we educate you and train you. But if we come into it with some of those softer skills that are going to make a good employee, I almost think what you just said, John, like they’re investing in you by paying you right? It’s the same lens that when we look at like college scholarships, private scholarships, it’s an investment of their money in you, and they have to make sure that it’s going to be a good investment. And so those are the things that are signaling I would be worth the risk. Ask I would be worth the investment, right? That’s exactly right. So what advice as we’re as we’re getting ready to wrap up here, like, what advice do you have for families? With my listeners are primarily going to be parents who have teens or young adults, young 20 somethings who are figuring out that first step, not the Forever step, we always say, but that first step into employment. What advice do you have for the families that are having these I push conversations at home and conversations outside of the home. What should those conversations look like?

Andrew Gardner 25:37
Girl one I would never underestimate the power of having a conversation with somebody that’s in that position, like you’re thinking about a potential career. Have a conversation. Get a Job Shadow experience. Leverage artificial intelligence. Have a conversation with the chat bot about potential careers. I think that’s a great tool to kind of explore, you know, explore early and get interested and hungry, and I’ll go to a long way. But the power of having job shadowing or work based experience, just going on site and see what a job or career may actually look like will go a long way.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 26:13
I think that’s we so we teach six types of what we call curated real world experiences inside my launch Career Clarity course, informational interviews and job shadows are two of them, and they’re so powerful. First of all, it will help build the skills, John that you were pointing out, they’re going to be looking for the second you walk into an interview, right when you get that interaction with adults out in the real world. That’s helpful. I think oftentimes we hear about opportunity, pay need, economic need for jobs, and that actually can apply some pressure to say yes to things that we haven’t really tested for alignment and fit. So while these sounds like you guys are you have all kinds of great opportunities. As far as, like, the pay will be excellent, the the training and the support are there. There’s a need. You’re not going to be under or unemployed when you come out of training, right? But like, if it still doesn’t align with the individual, then it’s still a bad choice. And Andrew, I would say, like, that’s the way to pressure test this for alignment. Agree. Totally agree. John, what would your advice be to families?

John Loyack 27:28
I would just say in Don’t, don’t rule out your options. And what I mean by that is, I think traditionally, and I’m generationally, I’m one of those folks who was told very early on, success is going. You will find success by pursuing this four year university path. I have no regrets. I’ve had, you know, I had a wonderful experience. But today, and this is something my children taught me, I realized there are different paths. And I think even though you know it, the the university path is one that remains very, very competitive, and even as an individual, kids from their first day of their freshman year of high school are thinking about their GPA and what can I do? And you know, having having great grades and working hard throughout high school is going to be important for everybody, but at some point you may want to look at other options. And if you, if you look at this as an investment, whether you’re the parent or the student or the employer or the state of North Carolina, we all know that through something like apprenticeship, that is the very highest ROI that you could possibly find, because the level of investment that you’re putting in as an individual isn’t as high as it would be with a four year university. We also know, and employers know that retention rates are higher, so you’re much likely, you’re much more likely to be able to hold that job and continue on a career path. We also know, statistically speaking, that every every individual after they complete an apprenticeship program for whatever occupation they’re in, for somebody in a similar occupation that does not have their journey worker certificate, you’re going to be making 10,000 more a year over the lifetime of your career. And so it’s something that just really does as an investment. It works for everyone.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 29:19
I love that you’re challenging, like we got to rethink. And I, you know, historically, I’ve been at this work for over 30 years now, and it was I worked purely with college bound teens for 20 years, and that has shifted. And it it shifted. It’s shifting period, but it shifted for our family. And it’s not lost on me that this morning, an Instagram reel that I recorded months ago, by the way, came in, and it talked about, like the I was talking about the judgment that people gave me as a college counselor at the time when we chose trade programs. But. Educational high school for one of my kids, and people told me I was lowering the bar, and I do not believe that at all. We’re raising the bar on alignment. And we got to we got to look at alignment through the type of work, the type of education we want to pursue, how we work and our finances, too. So bravo to you guys for raising the par down there in North Carolina. And I know that these are changing across across the country, but you guys really are a leader in this area. So thank you both for making the time

Andrew Gardner 30:37
well appreciate the opportunity to kind of share the secret sauce of North Carolina.

John Loyack 30:41
Thank you, Lisa.

Lisa Marker-Robbins 30:48
If this conversation got you thinking about alignment, not just chasing opportunity or a paycheck, but actually helping your child find a path that fits them, then I want to point you to a resource we created just for you. Here’s the reality, the path matters, but only if it’s the right path for your child. If you want help figuring that out, I have a complimentary video called the career identification compass in it. I walk you through how to know with confidence that your 15 to 25 year old is on the right path before any of you invest time, money or energy heading in a wrong direction. So instead of guessing or hoping it all just works out in the end, you can help them move forward with clarity and avoid that floundering or falling behind phase that we see so many families experiencing today. You can watch the video at flourish, coachingco.com, forward slash video. I’ll link to it in the show notes, along with the other resources that John and Andrew shared today, so that you can explore what these opportunities look like and find similar options in your own state. Thanks for listening, and I’ll see you back here next week. You.